AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

We’re joined now for Part 2 of our conversation with David Luis “Suave” Gonzalez, the subject and co-executive producer of the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast Suave, which starts season two this week, and journalist Maria Hinojosa, co-executive producer of Suave, founder of Futuro Media, host of Latino USA. Suave also has a new book — it’s just out — From Prison to the Pulitzer Prizes.

I want to go back to the podcast, season two. This is another clip.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I just feel sometimes that being free is not what everybody think it is. It’s really not. And it’s not really — everybody hype it up like, “You’re free. You could do whatever you want to do. All your pains and misery are gone.” That’s bull [bleep], man.

My miseries and pains are just starting. Like, seriously, I never had this much misery and pain in my life when I was in prison. I didn’t. I was shut out from the world. You know, you’re cold, shut everything down. And out here, you can’t do that, because you’ve got people looking for you. You got people that want — they lean on you for their support, for their comfort. I don’t want to live up to nobody’s expectations and none of that. You know, I’m done with that.

I am not happy. I’m glad I’m home. I’m glad about that. But if you say, “Describe happy,” I should be able to describe happy, and I can’t. I can’t. I won’t even know how to start to describe happy, even with a Pulitzer, even with — I can’t describe it, because I’m not.

AMY GOODMAN: A clip from season two of the podcast Suave, which starts this week.

We are continuing with journalist Maria Hinojosa and Suave.

Suave, in addition to the series dropping, you’ve just dropped a book, a memoir. The title is From prison to the Pulitzer Prizes. The subtitle is Searching for the Real Meaning of Freedom, While Confronting Trauma, Anxiety, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Talk more about what this means. Did you see that young man in prison, yourself, 31 years in prison, seven of those years in solitary confinement? Then you pushed to have this reporter, this journalist. How did you hear Maria Hinojosa? You open doors in your life all the time, and those doors are open for everyone. How did you push to have her come to the prison?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: After I came out of solitary confinement, a gentleman gave me a radio, only had like three stations. And one of the stations, Maria was playing, Latino USA. I was like, “Oh my God! They got a Latino on the radio?” We in the boondocks of Montgomery County in Pennsylvania, where the only thing you heard was rock ‘n’ roll music. So it was like, “Oh, I could hear this.” It was like she was speaking to me, every episode she dropped. It was like half-hour back then. It was like she was speaking to me.

So, one of my friends was the tutor, and he graduated that year, like 20 people with GED. He was like, “I need a guest speaker. They’re gonna give me the keynote.” I said, “I know the perfect one.” And he was like, “Come on. You don’t know her.” I said, “I don’t, but she will come. I guarantee you. Every reporter want to come into a maximum-security prison.” So they contacted Maria. Maria showed up. They told me, “You can’t get into graduation. You’re not graduating. You’re a troublemaker.” I was like, “Don’t worry about it. I’m gonna get in.” Graterford was a crook jail. I paid the guard. He let me in. And I sat in the front.

And Maria, I remember the conversation. Maria was speaking about the Mumia’s tape at that time, and how she made it to New York and how she became a reporter. But I just felt like she was talking to me. And it wasn’t about trying to get help, because there was no reporter at that time that would get me out of jail. I had a life sentence, and “life” meaning life in the state of Pennsylvania.

AMY GOODMAN: Life without parole.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Parole, means —

AMY GOODMAN: And how old were you when you were convicted?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I was 17. And so, I said, “OK, cool.” Then Maria started talking. She was with her husband. And I just, like, “I’m from New York.” And she’s like, “Me, too. You know, you could be the voice.” You know, Maria went into Maria’s mode, reporter, like, “You be the voice for the voiceless. You could be my source.” And I was like, I didn’t even know what a source meant. All I knew was, for the first time in my life, I’m meeting somebody that I heard on the radio, and I just thought she was the biggest thing out there, you know.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, I want to hear Maria’s side of this, because, I mean, you did something incredible when Suave came up to you. Talk about your side of it. You’ve just spoken to these men, to these men who were imprisoned, but it’s Suave who comes up to you.

MARIA HINOJOSA: Well, actually, Amy, I was surrounded by men in their jumpsuits. It was a sea of brown, right, Suave?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: All brown.

MARIA HINOJOSA: All brown. And it was a lot, right? Because many of them were saying to me, “I’m a lifer. I’m a lifer. I’m a lifer.” And it’s overwhelming, right? I didn’t — I felt completely safe, but I think it was emotionally overwhelming.

And then, all of a sudden, this guy shows up and kind of pushes through, and he’s like — in this great Suave accent, right? He’s like, “Yo, I’m from the South Bronx.” And I love the South Bronx. Shoutout to the South Bronx, to the Boogie Down. And he just said, “I’m gonna be in here for life, but I was sentenced as a juvenile. I want to do something.” And he was the only one who said, “I want to do something.” The other men, it felt like, “Do something for me. Maria, do something for me.” He was —

AMY GOODMAN: And telling you about their cases.

MARIA HINOJOSA: Yeah. And he was the one that said, “What can I do?” And I was like, “Whoa! Well, yeah, let’s just stay in touch. Like, now you know who I am. I know who you are. Let’s stay in touch.” And I used that term, which I don’t use now —  right? — “Be the voice for the voiceless,” because people are not voiceless. They have voice; they’re just never heard. But in that moment, it really connected for Suave. And literally, he changed his whole life around in prison.

And as you hear in season one, I am a Christmas card lady. You get my Christmas cards, don’t you? You get my Christmas cards. You’re on the list. And if you’re not, you’re getting it now. And so, I was like — Suave met my husband. He knew me. We were newlyweds. We were sending our, you know, annual Christmas cards. I was like, “How can I not send one to Suave? Like, he knows who I am. He knows my husband.” And then I just sent them every year, because I literally knew his address. I knew where he was. None of those Christmas cards was ever returned. And then I went back and reported, and then the Supreme Court, and that’s when we realized that we potentially had a major series on our hand.

AMY GOODMAN: When the Supreme Court said you can’t be sentenced to life without parole if you were convicted as a juvenile.

MARIA HINOJOSA: Correct.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: And they still made us wait five years. That was in 2012. They still made us wait five years, because the state of Pennsylvania appealed it. The same DA that appealed that decision and withheld us for five years was, ironically, walked out of court in handcuffs and convicted, the Philadelphia DA. So, you know, and to me, it’s like a get back, because today he works in the reentry circle within. When we see each other, I just wave at him.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean, “the reentry circle”?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Well, you know, he went to jail and had a change your heart, like most — 

AMY GOODMAN: The DA.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: The Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams. So, he had a change of heart, after he went to prison himself for stealing from his mama, something I never done.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that moment that we played in Part 1 of you calling Maria, you’re supposed to talk to her in the afternoon. It’s early in the morning. She’s saying, “Why are you calling now?” And you say, “The Supreme Court. The Supreme Court. They just made this ruling. I’m going to be free.” And then that feeling of being free, walking out of prison, yet, as is demonstrated in season two, it was very hard to hold on to that feeling for long. I’m wondering if you can talk more about that search for real meaning of freedom as you deal with trauma and anxiety?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I’m still in the search. I’m still in the search. I’m just grateful that I have good people around me, like Julieta Martinelli, Maria.

AMY GOODMAN: Julieta Martinelli is the host of the second series.

MARIA HINOJOSA: And producer, producer and host.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: And producer. And even though, you know, I’ll be the first one to admit that I like to hurt the people closest to me, which is Maria, Julieta, my fiancée, you know — 

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I’m glad there’s a table length between you.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Yes, I mean, because they are the closest people to me, so, of course, hurt people hurt people. And that’s part of the search, you know.

AMY GOODMAN: No, that’s true.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: But they keep me grounded. They keep me grounded. They keep me safe, if I may say, because I know that no matter what I say to them, no matter how my mind frame is, they’re going to be there for me at the end of the day. So, when I ask the question, you know, “If I ever get locked up, will you be there for me?” I don’t even got to answer that, because I know who will be there for me. I already know. But a lot of people that’s going through this don’t. A lot of people that come home with this trauma rather go back to prison, because it’s safer in prison for them, like I say.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about the regimen, and then the lack of structure.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: The lack of structure — inside or out here?

AMY GOODMAN: Outside.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: — is that nobody really cares what you’re going through. Nobody really cares we spent 31 years in prison, whether you did the crime or not. Nobody really cares if you’re eating or sleeping or breathing or talking to someone. All they care is, you’re free, and you should be able to adapt. And even family members, they come at you, “Well, you’re not in prison no more.” Because I always tell people, your first 30 days outside of prison, it’s going to be a party. People are going to want you home. People are going to celebrate you. But after 30 days, that 31 day, they’re going to be looking at you sideways. “Why are you still laying on the couch? Why you don’t have a job? Why are you not paying bills?”

That’s something I never learned how to do. When I went to prison, I lived with my mother. My mother did everything. She cooked. She washed clothes. She paid bills. I come home, now I’ve got to pay bills. Now I’ve got to find a job. Now I’ve got to know how to work in corporate America. I got to know how to deal with the stress, with the — of the workplace, with people looking at you. “You’re formerly incarcerated. Why are you here?” It happens every day. It happens every day. Even in my job, I got to be careful what I say, what I do. And I got a real good support system in my job.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you want to talk about your job?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Yeah. I’m a success coach for the “I Am More” program at Community College of Philadelphia, where I deal with justice-impacted individuals. So, my department is, like, exclusive, but really not exclusive, because we deal all with justice impact. So, there’s a lot of people that was hoping that we didn’t succeed. I took a program that had three students. Today we have over 130 students in the program.

AMY GOODMAN: Suave, I want to ask about what’s happening now under Trump. I mean, here you are, an educator at the Community College of Philadelphia for the “I Am More” program, focusing on recently incarcerated people. And you have Trump going after all, what they call DEI programs, diversity, equity and inclusion, purging these programs. What does this mean in reality, in practice, in your life, in the lives of these men and women?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: That means that we are getting a wake-up call. That means that we should vote with our conscience and not with our emotions. That means that a lot of justice-impacted individuals are not going to have the opportunity to change their life through education. But we at Community College, we’re committed to serving our community, which is the justice-impacted community and minority community, because that’s who we serve at community college. So, we’re staying the course.

AMY GOODMAN: Maria Hinojosa, there’s a part toward the end of the season. It was right in the middle of the presidential season. You’ve got Kamala Harris and Donald Trump in Philadelphia debating.

MARIA HINOJOSA: Right. First of all, I just want to say congratulations to Suave for everything that he’s done, right? And again, I think, I mean, the word “patriot” is — but I think, when I called Suave after binging season two, I said, “You really are a great American patriot for allowing a journalist like me to be able to hear everything about your story, no holds barred.” So, again, I say that to Suave all the time: Thank you.

And it’s not easy. We are always — he and I are always dealing with — because we are co-workers. We’re co-executive producers. I mean, I’m a friend of Suave’s, in the sense that I am a part of his family, the part in the family of his that is not going to walk away from him, that is going to walk with him as he finds his way seven years post-prison release. And so, we’re always still dealing with this. But, you know, Suave is down for it. He’s a cancer, just like I am, so highly emotional, but down for the conversation.

So, here’s what — here’s the thing about Suave as a human being and for us as a podcast, like, because we are always thinking, “Well, is there a season three?” I would say there is a season three that is about joy, that is really Suave being joyful. And by the way, in season two, you get that towards the end. We — OK, spoiler alert: We do go back to Puerto Rico, which is where Suave’s roots are from. We go back to Orchard Beach in the Bronx, Boogie Down. There’s a lot of beauty that happens and a lot of spiritual work that happens, even though our podcast is 100% fact-based, which we love, and that’s why we won the Pulitzer.

So, basically, Amy, what happens is that we wrap taping up on 125th Street at our studio, and it’s like, “Bye, Suave.” And then I said, “Suave, call me as soon as you get there.” Suave —

AMY GOODMAN: Because he lives in Philadelphia.

MARIA HINOJOSA: Because he lives in Philly. And sometimes Suave doesn’t call me immediately, even when he says he’s going to. That’s like a thing between he and I. So he didn’t call immediately. And I was like, “Oh, OK, you know, he’s just taking a break.”

Amy, the night that Suave leaves is the night of the presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump in Philadelphia. Suave gets on the Amtrak train with his backpack. And Suave is someone who spent time in a dangerous prison, therefore he feels safe by having something on him, in this case, a three-inch box cutter, which is not illegal, but because he’s on parole, because they’re searching bags and IDs on the Amtrak station, something happens to Suave.

And we’re going to leave it right there, because that, to me, is like — we thought we were done with season two. That night, something happens to Suave that to me says we’re not done. And, in fact, as Suave says, we’re not done until his sentence gets commuted. That’s when we’re done.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what about that, your sentence getting commuted? How are you pushing for that, Suave, since you’ve opened every door in your life?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Got to have seven years completely or more out, and then file for a pardon from the governor. And that’s like winning the lottery. But I’m going for it, because I believe I could win the lottery.

AMY GOODMAN: And what would it mean if your sentence is commuted?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: That would mean I’m free, completely free, don’t have to report, don’t have to pay restitutions, don’t have to pay parole supervisions. Because that’s one thing that I also pay, parole supervisions every month. I could travel. I can move anywhere I want to move.

AMY GOODMAN: Right now, if you want to go to New Jersey?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I have to ask for permission.

AMY GOODMAN: If you want to go somewhere in New York?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I have to ask for permission.

AMY GOODMAN: If you want to go somewhere in Pennsylvania?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I have to ask for permission.

AMY GOODMAN: Even though you live in that state?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: It’s outside of city limits.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you do? You call someone?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I’ve got to ask parole permission. And if they agree to it, I could go. If they don’t, I can’t go.

AMY GOODMAN: So, before we wrap up — and, of course, it’s not really wrapping up, because I encourage everyone to tune in, and you will live this season. What message do you have for those who have been incarcerated, are incarcerated now, even those who haven’t been, but when you hit the depths of despair, how you pull out of it, how you find redemption?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Don’t give up. Believe in whatever power of God that you believe. And I won’t tell you which one, but believe. Don’t give up, and always know that there’s somebody out here listening. In today’s time, there’s always somebody listening. You know, I think that I’m blessed at the time that I met Maria, because at that time I didn’t understand the power of journalism. I didn’t understand the power that she had, right? And again, language, it took a few words, just a simple few words — “You could be the voice for the voiceless” — which is something we don’t really use today, but those words changed my life.

AMY GOODMAN: When she said to you, when you came up to her and you said, “I’m in prison for life” — you’re not expecting anything else — “But what can I do?” and she said, “You can be the voice of the voiceless.”

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: Did you feel she was saying to you, “You can be somebody”?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Yes. I was like, “Here you got somebody that don’t know me. They believe in me that much. I could be somebody.” And it took a few years for me to really understand what that meant. But once I understood what it meant, I was like, “Oh, I could be the voice for the voiceless.” And I became that. I became real loud. I made a lot of problems for the institution, changed a lot of institutional policies. And people used to look at me and was like, “You’re not real. You’re not a real reporter.” I said, “I’m not. I never said I was.” I said, “But I can be” —

AMY GOODMAN: You’re the source.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I could be that voice, right? I could be the person that could tell the reporter there’s something going down in here that you need to investigate, because I know a real reporter. And I was able to turn the whole institution, SCI Graterford, into Maria’s fan, where we was watching CNN, we was watching Maria on La Plaza, on By the Numbers. I mean, we was having debates every time Maria — 

AMY GOODMAN: Because you were working at CNN, Maria.

MARIA HINOJOSA: At the time, I was working for CNN.

AMY GOODMAN: I remember going with you into the —

MARIA HINOJOSA: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — to follow you there — 

MARIA HINOJOSA: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — and they told us to put the camera down. I said, “But wait a second. You’re a TV station. Why are you telling us to put the camera down?”

MARIA HINOJOSA: But that meant that Suave and the whole crew could watch my work, right?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: Yes.

MARIA HINOJOSA: First, when we first met, I was on NPR as a correspondent. And then I moved to CNN. Then I was doing work on public television. And, I mean, one of the things that this work between Suave and I, for me, has been to be like, “Oh my god! People think that people behind bars are” — whatever, fill in the blank. And Suave and I would get on the phone, and he’d be like, “Well, we know that you were on Meet the Press, and all the guys on the block sat around for about three hours to talk about the segment that you did on Meet the Press.” And I was like, “Wait, Suave” —

AMY GOODMAN: In prison.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: In prison, yes.

MARIA HINOJOSA: I was like, “Wait, Suave. What?” And he was like, “Yeah, we sit around, and we talk politics, based on what you said or what we heard from Amy Goodman, or whatever. We sit” — and so, this notion of men behind bars having deep political conversations, because you know what, Amy? They actually have the time. They have the time to sit down and dissect democracy and the importance of being part of a democracy. And so, that kind of — that kind of intellectual communication that Suave and I have, apart from everything else, and I could see it.

I also want to commend Suave again, not only for writing his book, which is a feat. He’s written multiple books. When Suave went in — and this is in season one, and you hear it in my reporting from NPR in the year 1993 or ’94 — Suave’s like, “I came in illiterate.” Suave learned how to read, how to write. It took him seven times to get the GED. It took him 17 years to get his bachelor’s. He is a college graduate. And now his dream is that he is in academia, at the college, the Community College of Philadelphia.

And so, for me, Suave — you know, when he was in prison, apart from my husband, no one in my company knew him. They had never met Suave. He was somebody who called from prison. And I would remember I would call him like a Buddha. You know, here’s this man who is mostly happy and making dreams happen inside a prison. It’s like he’s a Buddha. And he dreamt, right?

Also, shoutout to Suave’s mom, Saro. We know that you are watching. She’s a very big part, not only of season one, but season two. And I think, ultimately, she is the one that led to Suave’s freedom.

AMY GOODMAN: And before we end, you got Maria into that prison to speak to everyone and to you. Can you go into a prison to speak to people?

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: I mean, I have, but right now I’m not mentally fit to be back in a prison, you know, because, to me, that’s real traumatic, because I left a lot of good men and women behind. But I’m going back soon. I’m going back soon and — 

MARIA HINOJOSA: To visit.

DAVID LUIS ”SUAVE” GONZALEZ: To visit, just to visit. You know, they got a guarantee I’m coming out within two hours.

But I just want to say this, that that book is really an open “thank you” letter. It’s an open “thank you” letter to Maria Hinojosa. And it’s like my — it’s my appreciation for putting up with my trauma, putting up with my mess, putting up with my disappearance, putting up with me ghosting her, that you’re probably going to hear in season two, putting up with a whole lot of stuff. And not only to Maria, but the whole Futuro team, they got to put up with my stuff. You know, because there’s a lot of people behind me, you know, especially Julieta Martinelli, that if it wasn’t for her, I probably would have walked away from season two, because I was at that point. Like, I don’t want to be recorded. I was going through something, and she put some common sense in me.

But that book right there is a real open letter that I would never, ever probably read myself in public — you got to read it — to Maria, the people that stood behind me, my fiancée, Lucero Velazquez, that suffered the most of my trauma, because when I was having a mental breakdown, I left my home, and Julieta and Maria bought me back. When I say “bought me back,” they brought me back to reality. They gave me that little bit of hope, like I don’t want to go back to prison. Because I was ready. When I say “I was ready” to go back to prison, I was ready. I did, like, crazy stuff, sent people money in prison. “Buy me commissary. Wait for me. I’ll be back.” And people in the prison system was like, “What? Oh no, what’s going on?”

So, you know, but that’s what happens when you don’t deal with the trauma. That’s what happens when you don’t have treatment after incarceration. And like I told Maria recently, like, I could pinpoint the start of my trauma, which was when my grandfather was murdered in front of me in the barber shop. And I was brought up in a household where it’s “Mans don’t cry. Shut up. You know, it’s normal.” So we normalize that kind of stuff. And I grew up with it, ’til one day I was like, “I need help.”

And my therapist made me see the picture, like, “Uh-uh, can’t go back to prison. You’re the voice.” You know, I’m always reminded now that you’re the voice for the voiceless. And when you hear people in prison call you now and tell you, “You’re our voice,” that’s a lot of — it’s a heavy load. When people in prison serving life, innocent people, look at you as their hope, that’s a bar that you can’t — you can’t let them down, you know. And I say you can’t let them down.

Because Maria would like to say that we wasn’t friends ’til I came out of prison, but yet — and I’ll close with this — on day one, on November 20th, 2017, the only people that was in that front gate waiting for me was journalist Maria Hinojosa with her poncho, a camera, a recorder underneath, and my brother, my lawyer and one of my great supporters, Aissia Richardson from Philadelphia. They was the ones at the gate. You know, I would love to say, “Oh, it was my family. It was my sisters.” No, it was them.

So, are we friends, or are we family? That’s for y’all to determine. All I know is that family fight. I fight with Maria every day. We was fighting yesterday. Fighting. But the one thing that will never happen again is that I will let that fight determine my next move. It’s not going to happen, you know. All right, we said what we said. I don’t like it. She don’t like it. But at the end of the day, if anyone out there have the heart to mess with Maria, then I will have to take action, because, you know, they are my family, and I protect my family. I really believe in protecting my family.

And that’s it, man. Listen to season two, because you will not be disappointed. If you’re looking for me and Maria living happily ever after in our relationship, it’s not going to happen. We’re probably going to fight ’til I’m 80, 90, because I’m one to disagree with a lot of everything. I process things differently because of where I come from. And then I need time to really, like, “OK, let me — let me say that again. Let me replay that.” But at the same time, I’m loyal. And I’m going to always be loyal to my team, which is the Futuro team, my supporters, because when I went to prison, I went to prison for being loyal to a false father figure. So, why can I not be loyal to somebody that’s really on my team?

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Suave, I want to thank you for being so open, for all of your work and your inspiration, for your struggle every single day and the example you set for people. David Luis “Suave” Gonzalez is the subject and co-executive producer of the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast Suave, and his book is just out, From Prison to the Pulitzer Prizes: Searching for the Real Meaning of Freedom, While Confronting Trauma, Anxiety, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I also want to thank Maria Hinojosa, who is the executive producer of the podcast series Suave, the season two just being released this week, founder of Futuro Media and host of Latino USA. To see Part 1 of our conversation, go to democracynow.org. And to hear this conversation, or something like it, in Spanish, their original language, from Mexico and from Puerto Rico, we’re going to post it at the Spanish website of Democracy Now! Check it out at democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.