What The Hell America!

In an inspiring interview, Barbara Lee urges us to “keep going” and “fight hard” for civil rights and democracy, drawing strength from the legacies of Fannie Lou Hamer and Shirley Chisholm.

This Women’s History Month, as we honor the many women who have helped shape this country throughout the years, I had the opportunity to speak with one such history maker, former longtime U.S. Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.).

As the first Black woman elected to the State Assembly, State Senate and Congress from Northern California and the highest ranking Black woman appointed to Democratic leadership, Lee has had a trailblazing nearly three-decade political career. She is known for spearheading the U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), being the sole no vote against the authorization of war after 9/11, and for fighting for peace, women’s rights, racial equity, climate action, ending poverty and increasing Black women’s representation in politics. 

After serving as a U.S. representative for 27 years, Lee decided not to seek reelection in 2024 in order to run for Senate. Although she was defeated in the Senate primary and left Congress in January, Lee may be poised to make history a second time, as she is currently running for Oakland mayor and, if elected, would be the first Black woman mayor of Oakland. 

In my conversation with Lee, she shares her take on what has been transpiring in Congress and the country since Trump took office, what lessons can we learn from history that can give us perspective or inspiration right now, what wisdom she imagines her mentor Shirley Chisholm would offer in this moment, her call to action and more. 

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

Marianne Schnall: What are your thoughts on what we’ve seen so far in the past eight weeks in terms of the Trump administration’s actions? You, of course, were in Congress for so many different eras and fights over the years. What has been on your mind as you watch what is unfolding?

Barbara Lee: Well, he is doing exactly what he said he was going to do during the campaign, and that is dismantle the federal government and establish an autocracy by dismantling the public sector and our democracy. He’s doing exactly what I figured he would do. And that’s why I worked so hard to try to get people to vote for Kamala Harris, because I knew the dangers and the risks, and I knew that he meant what he said. 

Schnall: There are so many hard-fought gains being rolled back on civil rights, reproductive rights, environmental protections and more—many of which played a significant part in achieving. What most concerns you about what you’re seeing, and what can we do about it?

Lee: What most concerns me are the people in the communities he’s hurting. And when you look at the threats to cut Medicaid, Social Security, when you look at what they’re doing in dismantling USAID, which I was the ranking member and chair of the committee that funded USAID, it is just devastating. It’s heartbreaking. He’s going after vulnerable people both in the United States and, quite frankly, throughout the world. This is a very sad and dangerous moment. And he’s in the process of dehumanizing people, which is just so tragic in this day and time, and using hate to hurt people and to make others afraid to speak out or to do anything about it, especially in Congress.

We need to push back. I think this is the time for street heat—the rallies and the marches that some communities are engaged in are what we need—but also political action. Those Republicans who don’t have the backbone or the spine to push back on him need to be defeated and need to be held accountable by their constituents.

This is the time for street heat—the rallies and the marches that some communities are engaged in are what we need—but also political action.

Former Rep. Barbara Lee

Schnall: You talked about USAID, and there are so many important governmental programs being cut right now. You were key to the founding of the U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), a global initiative to fight HIV and AIDS, which has saved millions of lives. Can you talk about its origins and impacts? And what would the consequences be of cutting it?

Lee: We’ve saved at least 25 million plus lives, and the consequences are that people are going to die.

I went to President Bush and brought him the idea of PEPFAR. We worked together to make sure that we had the framework for HIV and AIDS in terms of prevention, care and treatment, but also the funding. And it’s been bipartisan up until really last year when the really hardcore right-wingers refused to provide for a five-year extension because of some misinformation that they were disseminating to other right wingers. But we kept it bipartisan and the public wanted it bipartisan. We all have worked together over the years to keep it bipartisan to save lives. Now people are going to die from what Donald Trump is doing.

Schnall: This being Women’s History Month, what lessons can we learn from history that can give us perspective or inspiration right now?

Lee: We’ve come a long way. As a Black woman, like all Black women and women of color, I’ve had that double oppression in having to deal with racism and sexism. So we fought for equal rights, we fought for gender equality, we fought for civil and human rights. Again, as a Black woman, to feel the tide turning back, we haven’t even accomplished equality yet in this country.

Mind you, I was the only Black person, male or female, north of Los Angeles in the California Legislature and in Congress for 27 years. So that was some progress, but to be the only Black person shows you that we have a long way to go. And I held it down and formed allies and alliances and worked closely with people who did not look like me nor like people in my district in terms of the diversity. So I tried to crack that glass ceiling and that concrete ceiling for others. 

We need more women of color in Congress. So to see what he is doing, first of all, spewing hate, secondly, dismantling diversity, equity and inclusion policies and programs and funding, is a slap in the face. It says to me that we don’t count in his world and this government’s world. 

We have to push back hard. But I draw strength from those people who came before us. Look at Fannie Lou Hamer and Sojourner Truth and Ida B. Wells and all of the Black women who fought under dire circumstances, just so there was a Barbara Lee. And Shirley Chisholm, my mentor, she fought hard. Some of the same dynamics I saw in her campaign I saw in my campaign for the Senate. So we can’t give up. That’s the point. We have to have hope and we have to fight hard, recognizing the clock has turned back. So we’ve got to play defense and offense at the same time. But I always like to cite Dr. Maya Angelou, she said, “And still we rise.”

I draw strength from those people who came before us. Look at Fannie Lou Hamer and Sojourner Truth and Ida B. Wells and all of the Black women who fought under dire circumstances, just so there was a Barbara Lee.

Barbara Lee

Schnall: Speaking of Shirley Chisholm, the last time we spoke, you were working on getting the Shirley Chisholm Congressional Gold Medal Act passed, and it did pass in December, and she was posthumously honored with the Congressional Gold Medal, which was amazing.

As she was your mentor and the reason you got into politics, how did it feel to accomplish that before you left Congress? In this pivotal moment, what inspiration could we take from her example, and what would Shirley tell us right now?

Lee: That was such a full-circle moment. And it took me a long time to get that passed. It took so many people helping, so many members, so many outside organizations. So I just want to take a moment to thank Leader Hakeem Jeffries and to thank everyone, even Speaker Johnson. It had to be bipartisan, and I had to work so hard to get this passed. This was my last effort, and I was so humbled and proud of that. Now we’re in the process of creating the gold medal, and I’m working very carefully with the institutions that are putting it together. 

But Shirley Chisholm would say, keep going. Don’t turn back. She would say, yes, there’s a lot of hate that Donald Trump and his people have created, but keep moving forward. And she would say take care of yourself. She was always telling me, ‘Take an hour a day, Barbara. Shut yourself in and don’t let anyone disturb you. Eat your lunch.’ And she would tell us, it’s never been easy, keep at it. She would be encouraging us. I’m a woman of faith, and I feel her spirit and my mother’s spirit all the time. 

She would also say, see, I told you so about these people and about why we have to be vigilant because of the systemic issues in this country—it’s in the DNA in terms of sexism and women’s inequality and for people of color. I mean, this country was founded on the genocide of the Native people. Over 250 years of enslaving Africans, and then you had Jim Crow and segregation, systemic racism, systemic gender inequality. Embedded in this country are the values, in many ways, of what we see with Donald Trump. So Shirley Chisholm said, ‘We’ve got to not go along to get along, but change the rules of the game.’ So I know she would be fighting for reparation—and I had to establish the Truth, Racial Healing and Transformation Commission—she would be telling us, get to the core problems in this country. Don’t just tinker around the edges, disrupt the systems that have given rise to what we are seeing today. Otherwise, history will repeat itself.

Schnall: Thank you for all that you continue to do to keep her spirit and energy and legacy alive, which we need more than ever. Right now, people are feeling very overwhelmed, hopeless or like there’s nothing they can personally do to make a difference. What is your call to action?

Lee: The first thing is, get politically active. Don’t say that your voice doesn’t count. One vote can make a big difference. So register to vote and be active in between elections and develop and work with networks in other members’ districts where we can take back the House, so that we can have a speaker, at least during the last two years of a Trump administration who could stand in the gap and not let the bad stuff happen. So right now, get engaged politically and work nationally in districts where we can win. That’s extremely important. 

Secondly, and this is what I encourage people here in Oakland, Calif. to do, get involved in your neighborhood.

Just because of Donald Trump and what he has perpetrated on this country, don’t think that you can’t do anything.

Barbara Lee

People want to do something; they’re down and don’t have hope. They ask me, ‘What can we do?’ And I’m saying, neighborhood by neighborhood, we have unsheltered populations, we have blight, we have affordable housing issues, public safety issues, issues around discrimination. Get involved locally in volunteering and doing something in your neighborhood, doing the work. There’s a lot of work to be done. Just because of Donald Trump and what he has perpetrated on this country, don’t think that you can’t do anything. You can make life better for so many people who are marginalized and who are being attacked.  

Help people, help show the way. This gets down to the very micro level in terms of people who are hungry, children who don’t have clothes, and do something. There are plenty of things you can do now, and I have found that lifts people’s spirits. They see that they can do something, and it keeps people engaged. Because that’s how democracy’s supposed to work. You’re not going to let a dictator take over, but they will take over, this will be an authoritarian government, which it’s close to being, if in fact we don’t do something.

Schnall: In challenging times like these, what would you say about fostering resilience and not giving up? How do we stay hopeful so that we can continue to do the work when all we’re seeing on the news is so much doom and despair? 

Lee: First of all, understand there’s a lot of misinformation and disinformation, so don’t believe everything you see and read and hear—do your own fact checks.

Secondly, know that there’s a plan. Be educated about what happened historically in the 1930s. A lot of people don’t understand what happened in Germany. Get a historical context for what’s happening today, and teach kids not to be afraid but to be vigilant and to really understand the moment that we’re in and fight back. 

Schnall: I am so grateful that you are out there always fighting for positive change and spreading these important messages and always trying to do good in all the many forms that you do. Is there anything else that you would want to say?

Lee: I just want to salute all of those great warrior women at Ms. magazine and Gloria Steinem and the people I’ve known over the years who paved the way for myself and other women, especially women of color, to be able to break through some of these institutions. And we have to keep going and stay at it. So I’m grateful for Ms. and for what you’re doing because we need a voice and we need the truth told and we need to lift people up through examples of other people—like myself who at one point in my life was on welfare, raising two small kids, not having a place to live, at one point had an abortion, at one point was a survivor of domestic violence, you name it. And for Ms. magazine to be there to encourage us, people like myself who have had many life experiences that so many women have had, you all have kept us going. So thank you very much.